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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Not convinced this subject meets our WP:GNG or WP:NJOURNALIST guidelines. Hyperlocal coverage and regional Emmy's, etc, don't = notability or inherited inclusion on Wikipedia. We'd have quadruple the articles about local journalists if they did.

Thanks everyone for participating and if you disagree with this decision please take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review - unless there is a tech issue. Thanks for assuming good faith and happy holidays! Missvain (talk) 04:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Irene Byon

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Irene Byon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NBIO. She has not received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable. She was only made famous after several news outlets revealed her name. The journalist who got pulled over by police doesn't have an article. Perhaps redirect to the Kenosha unrest shooting page? Destroyeraa (Alternate account) 02:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: This article is about a minority woman journalist, a gap that Wikipedia has been attempting to close for years now. I believe the subject is at least marginally notable and this article might help Wikipedia look less like a boys' club. Furthermore, WP:ANYBIO states: The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times and she has received a first place prize in the Society of Professional Journalists, is VP of the Asian American Journalists Association and has been nominated for an Emmy Award. 173.87.170.14 (talk) 21:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - the inclusion of speculation about the involvement of her and a third-party in the Kenosha bus incident appears to be contradicted by WP:BLPCRIME and Snopes, so I removed it, along with what appeared to be a blog that relied on a report from the WP:EPOCHTIMES that was used to source other information in the article. What remains is a brief burst of coverage related to a minor viral moment, two regional Emmy nominations, an award from the SPJ, and sources verifying her career and education. Based on my research, there appears to be insufficient WP:SECONDARY support from independent and reliable sources for WP:JOURNALIST or WP:BASIC notability at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who made this deletion originally? Things like this are why nobody trusts wikipedia anymore. "Speculation" about her involvement in the stalking of a jury bus in a major court case? There was no speculation. The judge immediately barred her organization from participating in the trial. Stop playing partisan hackery on wiki, please. WP:NOT — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.216.7 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Notable for (1) Two Emmy award nominations and the 1st place SPJ Award; (2) Starring role in the "Irene, the Coffee Intern" viral video on Huffington Post comedy section; and (3) Mentioned by name by the judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial.
Yes, (3) made her "famous" as the OP noted, but she was "notable" for (1) and (2) before that happened.
The essay What BLP1E is not informed my thoughts: While (3) is "One Dominant Event", it is not the only event she's notable for. I see "a pattern of involvement in smaller (but still worthy of mention) events", which, considered in aggregate, make the subject notable.
I'm not aware that Epoch Times or "what appeared to be a blog" was ever a source for anything in this article and it isn't currently. The Snopes source that Beccaynr found confirms her job title and location and quotes the judge's verbatim words in court, naming her in context, so I added it to the article just now, thanks. BBQboffin (talk) 06:09, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In the revision history of the article, I noted in the edit summary [1] where I removed what appears to be a blog that relies on a report from the WP:EPOCHTIMES, which you appear to have added when you created this article [2]. Beccaynr (talk) 15:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see the your[News] source I originally put on was sourced by Epoch Times. Careless of me. Good catch there, and good riddance to it, but a moot point (WP:IMPERFECT). The Kenosha trial paragraph now has 5 sources including AP, KenoshaNews, Law and Crime, etc. BBQboffin (talk) 21:51, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP1E seems relevant because there are no significant events for which reliable sources cover Byon, she appears to be a low-profile individual (e.g. local leadership position, regional Emmy nominations, local SPJ award) and her roles in the minor events are not substantial or well-documented. Per WP:BLP1E, this article should be deleted because there appears to be no substantial support for notability; instead there is a minor viral moment created during the pre-2012 clickbait era of the Huffington Post (per WP:RSP), and a recent allegation of her peripheral involvement in an event Snopes describes as currently "unproven". WP:BLP1E states, biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view, which seems to be happening here, due to the lack of WP:SECONDARY coverage of her work as a journalist. Beyond the concerns discussed on the article Talk page, five sources stating the same/similar information does not help support notability for Byon (e.g. per WP:GNG, fn 3 It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works) but does seem to help show this is a WP:MINORASPECT of her BLP. Beccaynr (talk) 12:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
These "regional" Emmy nominations and "local" SPJ award and leadership and "minor" viral moment each originated in the LA/San Diego market, which is tens of millions of people and therefore more competitive. It's a "pattern of involvement" (as per What BLP1E is not); she didn't just win second place in the Podunksville pie-eating contest and then fall off the radar. Snopes' "Unproven" rating is regarding the veracity of the allegations, not the judge's mention of her name in the trial (which 5 different reporters from 3 different news outlets have named bylines for in the refs). As for "The concerns discussed on the article Talk page", I agree those are valid ones and worthy of discussion and reaching consensus about there. If the article can be rewritten to address those concerns, lets do that as opposed to deletion. I also agree with the trial part being a WP:MINORASPECT and consequently it is only two sentences out of twelve currently in the article. 5 of the 15 sources pertain to it but I only added more to try to address the WP:RS concerns you raised. BBQboffin (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 00:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I removed Union-Tribune wins 36 awards including top news site in local journalism contest (San Diego Union Tribune, 2020) from the article because it does not mention Byon, but I think it helps show the SPJ San Diego award is not a well-known and significant award or honor per WP:ANYBIO. The two Pacific Southwest Emmy nominations also do not appear to support WP:ANYBIO notability, including because these are for work with a group at NBC 7 San Diego, 2019, 2021, despite how the article had described the 2021 nomination as "this time personally for her work with NBC 7 San Diego" [3] [4]. I also think we can have more articles on female journalists by writing articles on subjects with notability supported by independent and reliable secondary sources, but this BLP does not appear to have sufficient support according to our policies and guidelines. Beccaynr (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The awards she was nominated for are properly called "Emmy Awards" and were reported in the San Diego Union Tribune with that name. Deleting that source and substituting a name that is not used widely in the industry does not improve the article. While the regional ceremonial awards event sometimes include the name (e.g. "Pacific Southwest Emmy Awards"), but the awards themselves are overwhelmingly referred to in the press as "Emmy Awards" or sometimes "regional Emmy Awards". The "regional" is not meant to be diminutive. The awards are by region so that there is fair competition in covering the same new events, e.g. a TV station in Southern California would not be able to cover Hurricane Katrina as well as a news team in New Orleans, for example. BBQboffin (talk) 18:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Regional Emmys are different than Emmy Awards - for example, compare List of Daytime Emmy Award winners, List of Primetime Emmy Award winners, and List of International Emmy Award winners to the Pacific Southwest Chapter of the National Television Academy article. Being nominated twice as part of a group for a regional Emmy therefore does not appear to be the type of award considered well-known and significant per WP:ANYBIO. And the San Diego Union Tribune article linked above discusses the San Diego SPJ award, not the Emmys. Beccaynr (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A regional Emmy is nevertheless a type of Emmy award; as you pointed out, there are Daytime Emmy Awards, Primetime Emmy Awards, etc. and these awards are "well-known and significant". Every single recipient listed on those pages has their own Wikipedia page as one would expect. The Emmy is a well-known and significant award and winners are notable, as are those who have been nominated multiple times. She was the producer and not merely "part of a team". BBQboffin (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: While the !votes are tending towards a keep, the majority are not backed by policy/notability guides but rather personal beliefs. I agree with more women on Wikipedia too, but that's not a valid reason to !vote keep.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ifnord (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the time, for Peters, the the only notability factor were the awards (she didn't have a viral coffee video, or a half-dozen news articles naming her in a high-profile murder trial), and with fewer !votes, the result was Keep after just one relist.

Many of the issues were similar: whether regional Emmys should "count" or not as a measure of notability. For a local/regional journalist this Emmy is the most prestigious award they could receive (as they are not eligible to complete nationally), and so to dismiss the regional Emmy award is to dismiss all other awards they won or could be nominated for. The argument for delete is in essence: no local/regional journalist can achieve notability on the basis of winning awards. That argument was rejected in the Susan Peters AfD and it should be rejected once again today. BBQboffin (talk) 03:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment In the 2007 AfD discussion noted above, there appear to be multiple concerns raised about whether regional Emmys can create a presumption of notability per WP:ANYBIO. In the 2021 Lana Zak AfD, a lack of independent coverage of awards, including an Emmy, a lack of in-depth coverage of Zak, her awards being related to her work with a group, and the apparent use of the article as a WP:COATRACK were raised in the discussion that resulted in a consensus to delete. The 2018 Leslie Cockburn AfD and article may also be relevant, because there is independent reporting on her national Emmy award. Subject-specific notability guidelines generally include verifiable criteria about a topic which show that appropriate sourcing likely exists for that topic, and while this is a presumption of notability, an article may still be deleted or merged into another article, especially if adequate sourcing or significant coverage cannot be found, or if the topic is not suitable for an encyclopedia. Here, it appears there is no independent coverage about Byon, as part of a group, being nominated for regional Emmys, nor about her win of a local SPJ award, nor her local leadership position in the Asian American Journalists Association, which was inexplicably included in a section titled "Kenosha controversy" [5]. The article appears to function more as a WP:COATRACK for the Rittenhouse trial, although inclusion of this material is disputed, and the article otherwise includes clickbait republished on HuffPo from when she was an intern, which may at best be marginal support for notability, if it is suitable for inclusion. The notability guideline also states that some SNGs, including for people, provide guidance when topics should not be created, and it seems clear there are no WP:JOURNALIST criteria supported by independent and reliable sources. Beccaynr (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Inexplicable? Hardly. Sorry, I've only been editing a few months and I make a lot of mistakes; thanks for fixing the location of the section heading.
    As I read the 2021 Lana Zak AfD discussion, it looks like the page[6] was created by a banned user and there were a lack of sources showing her winning an Emmy, a Peabody, and a Edward R. Murrow award but not much attempt was made to find them. Maybe that will be my next project! Contrast with Byon where we have sourcing to NATAS and SPJ, and they haven't yet banned me for misplacing section headings and mistakenly linking to blogs. :) BBQboffin (talk) 01:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The Emmy nom is a very strong indication of notability, even if an award was not obtained. The page could use some reliable sources from news media with SIGCOV so it can remain within the articlespace. Multi7001 (talk) 05:19, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for all of the reasons cited above. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Article is notable and reliable sources are present. Its organized and good quality so its a keep from me. HelpingWorld (talk) 04:46, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Marquardtika. Heartmusic678 (talk) 14:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Fails WP:NJOURNALIST and WP:GNG. Long standing AFD precedent is that regional Emmy Awards are non-notable, and all recipients fail WP:ANYBIO and WP:NJOURNALIST because the award itself is not notable. Only Emmys at the national level are considered evidence for meeting ANYBIO or NJOURNALIST. Subject lacks independent significant coverage in multiple sources. Fails WP:SIGCOV. Note to closer, please consider the strength of the arguments in your close per WP:NOTAVOTE. If you look at the sources, none of the independent references have Irene Byon as the primary subject. The article is mainly sourced to the University of California's Annenberg Media Center's alumni page from which Byon graduated. Byon likely wrote the content of this page herself. That is telling. The other sources are also primary sources, with the awards websites, professional society websites, and press releases being used to verify her local award nominations and wins for the San Diego region (note California has multiple regional Emmys, so these aren't even state wide awards but at the city/metropolitan area level). All the other sources are primary as well, as they are content generated by Byon while on the job. There is no independent coverage of her work outside of the awards, and that coverage is all primary. 4meter4 (talk) 15:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: There is no "San Diego region" for the Emmys; California has multiple regions because it is a state of 40M people. The Pacific Southwest Region in question includes San Diego, but also Las Vegas, Bakersfield, and several other counties which together comprise a population greater than most US states. If regional Emmys and awards that aren't state wide or national "don't count" for notability, that information should be put explicitly in WP:NJOURNALIST or WP:ANYBIO to reflect that policy. The many !votes to keep suggests to me that it is not consensus here "that regional Emmy Awards are non-notable". As I pointed out above, Susan Peters AfD was a famous example in 2007 where regional Emmys did establish notability, so if that's no longer the case or this AfD was a rare exception, can we please clarify what the official policy is? BBQboffin (talk) 06:07, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • BBQboffin, you are missing the forrest for the trees. A few points. First, cherrypicking a single AFD to establish a precedent for regional Emmys is not a valid argument. WP:OTHERSTUFF states this is an argument to avoid at AFD. One could easily find many other AFDs which had different outcomes as a counterexample. Ultimately it's not fruitful to shift arguments onto other articles at AFDs. Second, Susan Peters was awarded the Silver Circle Emmy Award (a national not regional Emmy Award for media professionals). As such, I don't think comparing her to Byon is helpful. Third, the policy at WP:ANYBIO does not address any specific awards on purpose because wikipedia inevitably covers hundreds if not thousands of awards and their winners in many different fields from all over the world. Policies are meant to be painted in broad brush strokes not minute details. Third, the policy already addresses the lack of notability for regional Emmy winners in its language, "well-known and significant award or honor". Regional Emmy Awards are not significant awards. They do not receive much media coverage, nor are its winners given much thought or attention for that honor after they win. That is not the case for national Emmy Award nominees and winners who are given much coverage in secondary and tertiary sources in relation to the award over time. With 20 regions and 60 award categories, there are 1800 regional Emmy Award recipients every year. It's a relatively common award. Lastly, we have zero independent significant secondary and tertiary sources for this person. As such, there is not a strong argument to keep this article.4meter4 (talk) 13:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Susan Peters was admitted to the Silver Circle (a society, not an award) in 2014. The AfD occurred in 2007, and per WP:CRYSTAL the editors did not keep based on some future expectations. Her page was kept based on the significance and notability that her regional Emmys gave her. WP:OTHERSTUFF states "If you reference such a past debate, and it is clearly a very similar case to the current debate, this can be a strong argument that should not be discounted because of a misconception that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates." I'm not cherry-picking Susan Peters, but I am sticking a [citation needed] tag on your claim that there's a "long standing precedent" that regional Emmys aren't notable. BBQboffin (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. There are many counterexamples BBQboffin. Such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rachel Frank (meteorologist). Regardless, other discussions really aren't pertinent to this one.4meter4 (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I agree with the above, this fails WP:NJOURNALIST and WP:GNG. Teh award she recieved is *not* an Emmy, its some regional version of the Emmy. The RS here are largely from non acceptable sources, some alumni material, or they are news sources actually discussing some incident that she was involved with. The sources don't really feature her. No independent sources here establishing her notability. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. A regional TV journalist whose career doesn't meet the criteria in WP:JOURNALIST. Passing mention in the Rittenhouse case doesn't constitute WP:SIGCOV. BBQboffin, by my count you have at least fourteen counter-arguments here which is approaching WP:BLUDGEON. Blue Riband► 04:27, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: This requires more discussion on whether being nominated for a Pacific Southwest Chapter of the National Television Academy Emmy award constitutes notability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – bradv🍁 05:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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